Will Communism ever strike back?

[Toptunov]

Happy New Year to everybody (especially to Y1)!

I’ve got some political questions addressed to the community:
1) Do you think that Capitalism is ethically stronger than Communism or rather that the lack of ethics is its best ally?
2) Do you think that the failure of Communism is permanent as or just temporary?
3) Do you consider the love for money a sane factor of progress or rather a dangerous religion?
4) Do you retain the social hierarchy a "natural condition"?
5) Do you appreciate Chinese “Commutalism”?

I’d like to get your opinions about the above topics, because me and my friends we are a bit disoriented by History’s quick changes.

[Epsilon=One]

Happy New Year to everybodyThank you. I have a few coming surprises for early 2008 that I hope will please all.

Your questions, 1–5, probably would not be adequately answered at book’s length or more. I will try to be succinct and leave it to the reader to follow with questions where I leave doubt or misunderstanding.

1) Do you think that Capitalism is ethically stronger than Communism or rather that the lack of ethics is its best ally?American Capitalism because of its emphasis/dependence upon growth, which is unsustainable, may be, ultimately, more evil than Communism. I define Communism as a totalitarian socialism. I do not confuse American Capitalism with democracy. And, I do not confuse the American form of government with the principles of the (American): Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the subsequently developed Codes of Law.

The lack of ethics, within certain limits, has been helpful for a rapid development of an abundance of resources. Just as important are the checks which Karl Mar x [Aside: apparently, this forum is "right-wing" influenced as the word "Mar x" is not allowed by the SPAM filter.] did not anticipate; such as: the strength of labor unions; anti-trust laws; a military controlled by the civilian public; a distribution of wealth through broad-based stock ownership; universal education; universal, national sufferage; social welfare, including pension provisions; taxation that limits inheritance transference; the peaceful, democratic transfer of power; indexed income taxes; a free press; etc., etc.

Mar x was wise in many ways; however, I doubt that he foresaw Leninism or Stalinism. It is difficult to doubt that totalitarian forms of government can quickly develop resources for the benefit of future generations while reinvesting without benefit for current producers; the question is whether the price is too high for the current generation, or so. And, of course, total, unchecked power corrupts.

Adding misunderstood patriotism and xenophobia to any "ism" is a forumla for disaster.

It must be understood that economics, social programs, and method of governing are separate disciplines combined in many forms of “ism”s. American democracy (and others) has been implemented for well over 200 years with a basically free press; yet, much still does not “work”; little is decided by pure democracy; however, what is better?

The American method of presidential election is rife with undemocratic manipulation at all levels. Coalitions of active, disparate minorities (Republicans) have recently elected a President (twice!!!) over the will of the inactive majority (Democrats). Those that vote for dissenting “third” parties lose their vote. Democracy is slowly and unevenly improving; however, getting it right requires much time and a certain amount of “luck.” Such is not always possible everywhere in a “shrinking,” interdependent world . . . especially where resources are as limited as avarice is unlimited. The only hope is to identify the problems . . . very soon.

I submit the problem is as simple as a lack of universal education/wisdom which facilitates metaphysical beliefs and the manipulation of persons against their best interests.

There will be a day, sooner than later, when we will all be citizens of the nation Earth; and, politics and economics will be managed by computers that will require occasional tweaking to maintain welfare and sustainability. Or, there will be major conflicts between the “haves” and “have-nots” that will make major wars of the past seem minor.

2) Do you think that the failure of Communism is permanent as or just temporary?If the question is: Will Russia become more totalitarian? I believe that it will for many reasons. Whether such a period will be temporary or not, I believe depends a lot upon “luck.” Whether such is beneficial for the majority of its citizens, I can only guess that it marginally will be.

Democracy, and more important a free press, are seldom overnight phenomena. Certainly not without acute trauma.

If the question implies socialism, rather than totalitarianism, the world moves toward socialism in the manner of entropy.

3) Do you consider the love for money a sane factor of progress or rather a dangerous religion?Given the choices: the love for money is a dangerous religion. As with all religions the satisfaction is illusionary. Factors of progress are wise, contemplative minds; tolerance; and sustainability.

4) Do you retain the social hierarchy a "natural condition"?No. Just the opposite. Watch young children for such cues.

5) Do you appreciate Chinese “Commutalism”?Yes! It seems to be working quite well as a segue to a “different” world. I spend much time with Chinese students at the University of California: Irvine (UCI “the University of China at Irvine”) where many of China’s leaders are being educated. They are anxious to return to China, whereas past generations were not so inclined. I worry more about the education and values of America’s upcoming leaders than China’s.

I’d like to get your opinions about the above topics, because me and my friends we are a bit disoriented by History’s quick changes.I certainly do not intend the above opinions as exhaustive.

For better or worse, “quick changes” have been the nature of History. I like the term: Paradigm Shift! Soon there should be a most interesting Paradigm Shift! in physics that should bring about a change in much of the world’s society.

As with all sudden change, there can be many unintended consequences; however, for the long run, I am most optimistic that there will be a day when humans will look back to our era and wonder how anyone could have survived the mental stress.

[WILLIAMS]

Thank you. I have a few coming surprises for early 2008 that I hope will please all.

Your questions, 1–5, probably would not be adequately answered at book’s length or more. I will try to be succinct and leave it to the reader to follow with questions where I leave doubt or misunderstanding.

American Capitalism because of its emphasis/dependence upon growth, which is unsustainable, may be, ultimately, more evil than Communism. I define Communism as a totalitarian socialism. I do not confuse American Capitalism with democracy. And, I do not confuse the American form of government with the principles of the (American): Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the subsequently developed Codes of Law.

The lack of ethics, within certain limits, has been helpful for a rapid development of an abundance of resources. Just as important are the checks which Karl Mar x [Aside: apparently, this forum is "right-wing" influenced as the word "Mar x" is not allowed by the SPAM filter.] did not anticipate; such as: the strength of labor unions; anti-trust laws; a military controlled by the civilian public; a distribution of wealth through broad-based stock ownership; universal education; universal, national sufferage; social welfare, including pension provisions; taxation that limits inheritance transference; the peaceful, democratic transfer of power; indexed income taxes; a free press; etc., etc.

Mar x was wise in many ways; however, I doubt that he foresaw Leninism or Stalinism. It is difficult to doubt that totalitarian forms of government can quickly develop resources for the benefit of future generations while reinvesting without benefit for current producers; the question is whether the price is too high for the current generation, or so. And, of course, total, unchecked power corrupts.

Adding misunderstood patriotism and xenophobia to any "ism" is a forumla for disaster.

It must be understood that economics, social programs, and method of governing are separate disciplines combined in many forms of “ism”s. American democracy (and others) has been implemented for well over 200 years with a basically free press; yet, much still does not “work”; little is decided by pure democracy; however, what is better?

The American method of presidential election is rife with undemocratic manipulation at all levels. Coalitions of active, disparate minorities (Republicans) have recently elected a President (twice!!!) over the will of the inactive majority (Democrats). Those that vote for dissenting “third” parties lose their vote. Democracy is slowly and unevenly improving; however, getting it right requires much time and a certain amount of “luck.” Such is not always possible everywhere in a “shrinking,” interdependent world . . . especially where resources are as limited as avarice is unlimited. The only hope is to identify the problems . . . very soon.

I submit the problem is as simple as a lack of universal education/wisdom which facilitates metaphysical beliefs and the manipulation of persons against their best interests.

There will be a day, sooner than later, when we will all be citizens of the nation Earth; and, politics and economics will be managed by computers that will require occasional tweaking to maintain welfare and sustainability. Or, there will be major conflicts between the “haves” and “have-nots” that will make major wars of the past seem minor.

If the question is: Will Russia become more totalitarian? I believe that it will for many reasons. Whether such a period will be temporary or not, I believe depends a lot upon “luck.” Whether such is beneficial for the majority of its citizens, I can only guess that it marginally will be.

Democracy, and more important a free press, are seldom overnight phenomena. Certainly not without acute trauma.

If the question implies socialism, rather than totalitarianism, the world moves toward socialism in the manner of entropy.

Given the choices: the love for money is a dangerous religion. As with all religions the satisfaction is illusionary. Factors of progress are wise, contemplative minds; tolerance; and sustainability.

No. Just the opposite. Watch young children for such cues.

Yes! It seems to be working quite well as a segue to a “different” world. I spend much time with Chinese students at the University of California: Irvine (UCI “the University of China at Irvine”) where many of China’s leaders are being educated. They are anxious to return to China, whereas past generations were not so inclined. I worry more about the education and values of America’s upcoming leaders than China’s.

I certainly do not intend the above opinions as exhaustive.

For better or worse, “quick changes” have been the nature of History. I like the term: Paradigm Shift! Soon there should be a most interesting Paradigm Shift! in physics that should bring about a change in much of the world’s society.

As with all sudden change, there can be many unintended consequences; however, for the long run, I am most optimistic that there will be a day when humans will look back to our era and wonder how anyone could have survived the mental stress.


Democracy is an illusion. If not then an oxymoron. Be Happy

[Epsilon=One]

Democracy is an illusion. If not then an oxymoron.Certainly is, as practiced in America.

The Native Americans taught us the "town hall" concept of democracy. As with most everything else they taught the "White" man . . . we screwed it up.

[Toptunov]

Hello everybody,

thank you for your interest.

If you would like to go on debating, please supply some responses to my doubts
1) After Soviet collapse (1991) has America increased its democracy (with the opportunity for a former soldier, a woman and a black man to become President) or have USA taken some steps back (with two “royal” families sharing the whole power)?
2) In this World, does the mass media play a “neutral” role (by taking a picture of how the human nature is without any filter) or is it fundamental in forming the consciences (by pushing people towards a well-defined model of development)?
3) In order to reach the power, is it more important to possess an efficient army or several spreading mass-media?

To Y1,
why do you correlate the increasing social “entropy” with a possible future socialist perspective?

To Williams,
sometimes I also think that democracy is a fake, but I can’t properly justify my impression (in a rational way, I mean). Why do so many different people get the same impression? Are we manipulated? Is the parties-system somewhat “rigid” so that it’s impossible to get some change? Is the politics too slave to economy for hoping to receive autonomous responses?

[bpj1138]

Communism gets a bad name because it's immediately associated with "totalitarian communism" or the old communist dictatorships..

Communism is an economic system, but ask an American what they think of it, they'll tell you that it's a place where people get killed for speaking out against the government.. well, the two have nothing to do with one another! You could judge Capitalism the same way with a lot worse examples, but nobody does that either.. but I digress..

True "Communism" is really just socialism.. It's a place where the government helps the people with basic needs, or even outright provides them, but allows the people to work for themselves if they choose to do so, own businesses, and so forth. This seemed to be the crux of the problem in the old totalitarian versions of both systems.. On the russian side, an individual couldn't own a business, and on the american side, the government couldn't own a business.. both places suffered by making such restrictions..

So, in my opinion, communism is alive an well in the socialist countries of europe.. the governments there own a lot of vital businesses and provide those vital services, and the people are free to create their own businesses if they choose to do so. Case closed..

As to the US.. this country is still fighting the cold war.. LOL.. I also want to say that I lived in Poland when you could have seen tanks driving on city streets and soldiers standing on every corner with machine guns, but honest to god, I've never felt as repressed as I feel now in the US... seriously..

--Bart

[Epsilon=One]

So, in my opinion, communism is alive an well in the socialist countries of europe.. the governments there own a lot of vital businesses and provide those vital services, and the people are free to create their own businesses if they choose to do so. Case closed..

As to the US.. this country is still fighting the cold war.. LOL.. I also want to say that I lived in Poland when you could have seen tanks driving on city streets and soldiers standing on every corner with machine guns, but honest to god, I've never felt as repressed as I feel now in the US... seriously.I understand your concerns. It is to the best interest of much of the U.S.A.’s elite class that we continue with the neo-con, military/industrialist way of life . . . and, thus it bankrupts our treasury, morals, and way of life. Such a situation has been promoted as patriotism, which is about as disruptive a word as religion; yet, one of the most powerful motivators against one’s self-interest.

Though I agree with most of your comments, I do disagree with your implied concept of Communisim. I understand Communism as the melding of Socialism (Mar x was a genius who did not foresee Lenin or most of the controls that arose much later within Capitalism) with totalitarianism.

(Interesting . . . and possibly telling . . . this forum does not allow the word "Mar x" without a space.)

Thus, there can be little long-term merit to a communist form of government. Though, in the short term there is probably no better way to increase the state's capital . . . its infrastructure, to better the lives of future generations.

I seriously doubt if the risks are worth the trade-off between generations. Probably, the best source to judge this is through the experiences of the different Russian/Soviet generations.

Capitalism, as it is doing, must slowly evolve to Socialism if planet Earth is to survive its human tormentors.

[Note: Toptunov, I have not forgotten you. Time is extremely limited; and, your probes are difficult to explore with ad hoc posts.]

[bpj1138]

I understand your concerns. It is to the best interest of much of the U.S.A.’s elite class that we continue with the neo-con, military/industrialist way of life . . . and, thus it bankrupts our treasury, morals, and way of life. Such a situation has been promoted as patriotism, which is about as disruptive a word as religion; yet, one of the most powerful motivators against one’s self-interest.


This is precisely the repression I was referring to, which is implied, assumed, and ubiquitious (the worst kind).. even the poorest of the poor have the same ethics, not just the elite, which shows the extent of the brainwashing..


Though I agree with most of your comments, I do disagree with your implied concept of Communisim. I understand Communism as the melding of Socialism (Mar x was a genius who did not foresee Lenin or most of the controls that arose much later within Capitalism) with totalitarianism.


Noted..


(Interesting . . . and possibly telling . . . this forum does not allow the word "Mar x" without a space.)


Did I mention the voluntary censorship by ordinary citizens?? LOL..


Thus, there can be little long-term merit to a communist form of government. Though, in the short term there is probably no better way to increase the state's capital . . . its infrastructure, to better the lives of future generations.


I doubt this place can be changed by anything else, or will be, either way..


I seriously doubt if the risks are worth the trade-off between generations. Probably, the best source to judge this is through the experiences of the different Russian/Soviet generations.


All this is tied to technological development, so such a reference would not be very useful today.


Capitalism, as it is doing, must slowly evolve to Socialism if planet Earth is to survive its human tormentors.


They're hogs basicly.. they're hogging the resources, machines, land, etc..

--Bart

[Toptunov]

Hello Y1,

sorry for our rare meetings on this forum, anyway always enriching.

A straight question for you: is USA today a country more socialist than last year?

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